Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:14:35 -0400
Message-Id: <199704291114.HAA04882 at synchro.com>
From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com
To: judge-digest at synchro.com
Subject:   judge-digest V1 #1430
Reply-To: judge at synchro.com
Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com
Precedence: bulk


judge-digest               Tuesday, 29 April 1997       Volume 01 : Number 1430

 ============================================================================
       J u d g e N e t   -   t h e   b e e r   j u d g e   d i g e s t
 ============================================================================

 Moderator:        Chuck Cox          <chuck at synchro.com>
 Archivist:        Spencer Thomas     <spencer at umich.edu>
 Publisher:        SynchroSystems     <info at synchro.com>

 Submissions:      judge at synchro.com
 Subscriptions:    judge-request at synchro.com
 Archive:          http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge
 BJCP info:        geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com

 ============================================================================
 contents:

 German Ales
 Re: Uerige Alt 
 Awareness of Commercial Styles
 Steam Beer
 Secret Recipe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David E Drinkwater-Lunn <David.E.Drinkwater-Lunn-1 at tc.umn.edu> (David Drinkwater)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 18:02:36 -0500
Subject: German Ales

These are just general comments on the threads that have recently been
going out on JudgeNet about German ales, without specific reference to
authors, etc.  Full credit is, of course, due to those who have written...

Zum Uerige is an excellent Altbier, but it is, as is implied, just about
the most bitter and astringent Altbier out there.  (I certainly can't think
of any that are more so.)  There aer, therefore, others that are not as
bitter or astringent.  The top Altbiers (ie, the Desseldorf micros) are Zum
Uerige, Ferdinand Schumacher (which I will call "Schumi" later...), Im
Fuechsen, and Zum Schluessel.  OK, I had to look up the last one and
Schumi's first name...  Uerige has a relatively light body (against the
other three), but it is still not an American Light lager by body.  The
Schumi Latzenbier (specially brewed) is the maltiest and sweetest of the in
town brews, I had the good fortune to taste, but think it was lighter in
body than the widespread Hannen, which you can probably get on this side of
the ocean (haven't looked lately, :(( ) and certainly throughout Germany.
I was surprised to see that Jackson called Schumis regular brew the
lightest of the bunch, but, then, it's been three years, and I might have
been mixing up the Latzenbier with the regular brew.
   The Gatzweiler Brewery itself has also started brewing "traditional"
top-fermented beers that are not truly in keeping with the "Altbier"
styles.  It seems that several German breweryies are producing
top-fermented ales that they were not brewing 5-15 years ago, so it would
be nice to get back adross and see what they are up to...

   The other thread of late was Weizenbier.  A German Weizen is just plain
different than any wheat beer I have had that was produced in an American
micro-brewery.  I have brewed a wheat from a kit that seemed really close,
though.  (Wish I could take more credit, but it was a kit...)  No, the
American brews do not seem to have the clove or banana that is
characteristic of a Bavarian Weizen.  The question as to the balance of
flavors:  it seems to me that the German balance was more clove than
banana, but that varied from brand to brand.  Judges need to know that a
Weizen really does taste different fresh than most of the Weizen you will
find at a local beer specialty shop.  It does not travel well.  If for no
other reason than that there is still a lot of yeast in that bottle:  there
is a lot of potential for change with improper handling.

   I have to agree with the argument made that these beers have to be
brewed colder than most american attempts at German ales are.  The Weizen
is a lower 60's F fermentation, and the Alt and Koelsch styles should
really probably be fermented near 50 and lagered even lower for a while
before serving.  The Alts and Koelsches may be sweet (or even malty for an
Alt), but they are still clean German brewing.  The Weizen needs the
esters, but can't come out right when brewed at 75 or higher.

David

- --
David Drinkwater, drin0004 at tc.umn.edu, NetNick=Demodave,
Homepage at http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m020/drin0004
Chilling in Minneapolis at the University of Minnesota
Happy to hear from you! :-)


------------------------------

From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:55:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Uerige Alt 

"Danger, danger Will Robinson!"

Let's not fall into the trap of defining a style by a single example,
no matter how wonderful we may think it is.  (Ref: the recent
discussion about Cal. Common and Anchor Steam.)

I have not had the pleasure of tasting Duesseldorf Alts at the source,
but everything I have read asserts that Zum Uerige's alt is
significantly more bitter (e.g., 45 vs 30-ish IBUs) than that from the
other brewpubs in Duesseldorf.  

If we take this one beer as the "standard" for the style, then are we
not also saying that the beer from Im Fuechsen, for example, is out of
style?  I can't, in any conscience, claim that to be the case.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

------------------------------

From: MaltyDog at aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:15:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Awareness of Commercial Styles

I agree with George de Piro, in the thread he began about
Bavarian Wheat Beers recently, that judges are often not
comparing the beers they are judging against commercial styles.
He points out that they are at times strictly using style guidelines
rather than a knowledge they don't have; I think it is more than
that; I think that in some cases, judges have no real knowledge of
commercial versions of a style they are judging, and are strictly
comparing the beers to other homebrewed attempts they may
have had, whether they fit the style or not. I think there is a lot of
real ignorance about beer styles out there.

This was brought home to me recently on two different occasions.
A few weeks ago, I submitted an Imperial Stout to a local contest,
which had a starting gravity of 1.011, and a finishing gravity of
1.036. I worked hard to get the gravity down that low, and I was
still concerned that  it would be under attenuated. You will note
that both the starting and finishing gravities are higher than the
AHA style guidelines. When I got the sheets back from the contest,
I had no problem with my score (I think it was around 30, but I
don't have the sheets in front of me), and I had no complaints
about the various comments made about the balance of flavors in
the beer; I know it was on the young side. However, I found totally
ridiculous the comments from both judges (one of whom is a
published beer writer), that the beer was too thin! I don't know
what they were looking for, Bosco? I commented on this to
another judge at a later contest, and he suggested to me that
maybe the judges were used to tasting homebrewed imperial
stouts, which can often be extremely under attenuated, and using
that as a comparison. That sounds correct to me.

The second occasion was a best of show round. One of the beers
that made it to the best of show was, indeed, a Bavarian Weizen
that tasted purely of banana, with no real clove or vanilla to speak
of. One of the judges commented that it tasted right on for style to
him, and I would hope that the judges who sent it on thought it
was acceptable, though of course I don't know what they had to
choose from. Again, I can think only a judge who was familiar only
with homebrewed Bavarian Weizens, and not the many
commercial ones available, would think it tasted appropriate to
style. 

In that same contest, I had sent on to best of show, from the first
round of judging, a very good Barley Wine, that was full-bodied
and hoppy, without being cloying. I am sure that it was well within
the style guidelines; maybe even on the high side; nevertheless,
when we got to the best of show round, two judges complained
that it wasn't big enough. Now admittedly, I was more familiar
with this particular beer then the other judges, having had it in the
first round; nevertheless, anyone who would complain that the
beer "wasn't big enough" for a Barley wine would seem to have
little acquaintance with the style.

I came into homebrewing after several years of sampling beers of
various countries; the interest in beer styles came first, and the
interest in making it came second, and the interest in judging it
came third. I know for many homebrewers it has been different;
they started making beers before they really knew much about
them. This is fine, and I am sure that many of them are better
brewers than I am; nevertheless, if you are going to become a beer
judge, and a good one, you have to familiarize yourself with
commercial styles, not just homebrew. This may seem absurdly
obvious, but from the two incidents noted above, and from other
conversations I have had with judges at various levels of
experience, I know it is not always true.

Bill Coleman
MaltyDog at aol.com

------------------------------

From: popeman at webtv.net (Tom Pope)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:47:28 -0700
Subject: Steam Beer

Lowell Hart wrote about the  steam beer judging at the Ca. State
Homebrew  Championships.  As one of those who judged the Stam beer
category, I would like to submit  the following facts : First, although
one of the judges provided a bottle of Anchor Steam Beer to calibrate,
it was not a brand new bottle. As  I  recall, the bottle we used had a
bottling date of about 2 months prior to the judging.. Second, the
judges did not "trash" athe beers that did  not taste exactly like the
Anchor Steam. I would like to point out that the category for this
competition was described in the categories as follows:Steam Beer*
(registered trademark of Anchor Brewing Company). Amber to copper.Medium
to high hop bitternessLow hop flavor and aromaMedium body. Malty.
....Contrast this with the AHA description..California Common Beer.Light
amber to copper.Toasted or caramellike maltiness in aroma and flavor.
Medium to high hop bitterness. Hop flavor medium to high. Aroma medium.
.....It seems as if two different types of beer are being described
here.  Our panel judged the entries according to the description
provided in the categories provided for this competition. We realized
that some of  the entries may have been very fine California Commons,
but we felt that the description of our category required us to
evaluate the entries  using  the guidelines provided. And as I recall,
a good number of the entries  rceived relatively high scores. So again
the issue of judge knowledge versus category descriptions comes up, with
a slightly different twist. We have a category which has only one
commercial example, and we seem to have a description in this particular
contest which pretty much describes Anchor Steam, and not necessarily
the broader spectrum of historical California Common Beers. And that is
my two cents worth on this subject.....Go figure, Tom Pope

------------------------------

From: JCalen at aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:40:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Secret Recipe

Thanks to all who responded to my query. I've tallied the results of the de
facto poll -- both public and private -- and thought you all may find this
interesting.

Robust Porter: 7
Sweet Stout: 3
Foreign Stout: 2
Stout: 2
Old Ale: 1
American Brown Ale: 1
Brown Porter: 1
Porter: 1
Specialty: 1
Something malty sweet and balanced (no style named): 1

I've included my vote in the above and counted all multiple votes. Give me a
little time to compose a case why I chose as I did. Hopefully we'll all learn
a little something along the way.

Regards,
John Calen

------------------------------

End of judge-digest V1 #1430
****************************

 Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com.
 Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.