Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.26]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14199 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.36]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07112 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:25:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root at localhost) by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.5) with X.500 id KAA15715; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:25:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu6.psi.com (uu6.psi.com [38.145.155.3]) by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.5) with SMTP id KAA15682; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA12630 for spencer at umich.edu; Thu, 19 Mar 98 10:25:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA17828 for judge-digest-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:52:46 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:52:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199803191452.JAA17828 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1552 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Thursday, 19 March 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1552 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: brew with style, not to style Andygator Re: More Bigness BOS panels Out of style Whoops wrong category ... out of style Expectations of competitions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Pepin Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:47:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: brew with style, not to style As for where to enter beers that don't fit any particular style, we at the Triangle Unabashed Brewers in Durham, NC started a tradition a few years ago at our annual contest. NAmed after a long time club member, extract brewer, perennial director of stewards and general bon vivant, it is called the "Dave Green memorial, 'brew with style, not to style,' Just Plain Good Beer" contest. Since there's usually a lull around the time of BoS judging, we ask the remaining judges and other interested bodies to gather to judge this category. Judging is strictly subjective, with each person voting for their favorite beer, irregardless of style guidelines. In the ancient tradition of the Roman Senate, winners are chosen by acclamation. The tasting is blind, but lobbying is accepted if usually frowned upon. And it's a lot of fun, to boot. Despite the "memorial", Dave is still alive and brewing, and rapidly closing in on his 300th batch. Craig Pepin TRUB ------------------------------ From: "Thomas, Andrew R" Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:45:30 -0600 Subject: Andygator Carl Saxer, in JD#1551 said: " The Abita Brewery in Abita Springs, Louisiana used to make a very nice blond dopplebock called Andygator. It was not bottled and sold due to some arcane alcohol content law or some such... It was on tap for visitors to the brewery and on tap at their brewpub. I don't know if it is still being served there now as I have not been across Lake Pontchartrain to Abita Springs in a couple of years. I understand there have been some changes at the Abita Brewery, but if you find yourself in that part of Louisiana, stop in and see if they still serve it. It's worth the effort! Carl Saxer" Carl, how are you? The Abita Brewery still does not make and distribute the Andygator, but they do have it at the brewpub on draught. It is quite nice although far removed from the 1987 heller dopple that won the CCH best-of- show. It is more of an amber lager these days, but oh man, the alcohol. Get a designated driver, but take advantage. Yes, there have been changes at Abita. Since they ran off Brooks Hamaker, the brewer, and Jim Patton, the original founder (funny how life can bite you in the ass when you sell your ownership down to try and make a great little brewery bigger), the place is very impersonal and more "corporate". They are thriving on the Bohemian image that was created by the real creators of the business who are now no longer actively involved in the business since they were booted out. Anyway, there is one waiter there that even remembers who I am, and when I send Abita email that says "Hey you guys dont really know me, but I am Andygator and I live in Houston" the email goes unanswered. So although the brewpub food is good, and the Andygator is worth a try, I dont buy the product in Houston much these days. Nothing stays the same. andy thomas ------------------------------ From: Dion Hollenbeck Date: 18 Mar 1998 07:55:28 -0800 Subject: Re: More Bigness >> John B Yust writes: John> I agree with Bill Giffin's comments on styles in yesterday's John> digest (#1550). I would also like to add that there is a John> possibility that I haven't seen posted yet as a solution to the John> question of whether or not a too big beer should win. I think John> the solution is to just not award a first place if there aren't John> any beers that are good enough. I've seen a variation of this John> applied to the lowest score, 25 points min. for a ribbon. And this is what we do in the AFCHBC, although we require 25 for a third, 30 for a second and 35 points for a first place. We had a few categories which had no first place awards. We do not believe in rewarding poor beers merely because they are the only beers in a poorly attended category. dion Judge Coordinator 1998 America's Finest City Homebrew Competition Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor http://www.softbrew.com/afchbc - --- Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen at vigra.com http://www.vigra.com/~hollen Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California ------------------------------ From: Virginia Wotring Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:52:23 -0600 Subject: BOS panels I have to disagree with something that Steve Murphrey wrote yesterday about BOS panels. He wrote: >I had 1 other qualified out-of-town candidate available, but it >seemed unfair to the locals to overload the panel with out-of-towners. I have always thought that it is *better* to have most of the panel be from out-of-town. Consider these facts: *Most entries in any homebrew comp are from local brewers. *Many of the local brewers have tasted and/or discussed their beers with each other prior to the comp. For these reasons, it seems to me that having "outsiders" evaluate the beers is more objective (providing, of course, that qualified out-of-town judges are available) Something to think about, Ginger - ----- Virginia E Wotring, PhD Dept Neurobiology, UAB (205) 975-5094 ------------------------------ From: "Bryan L. Gros" Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:28:04 -0800 Subject: Out of style John Yust wrote: > I agree with Bill Giffin's comments on styles in yesterday's digest >(#1550). I would also like to add that there is a possibility that I >haven't seen posted yet as a solution to the question of whether or not a >too big beer should win. I think the solution is to just not award a >first place if there aren't any beers that are good enough... > I agree, John, and I agree with John DeC as well. "Out of style" is not a binary thing, and it shouldn't be scored as such. There is a range of style parameters, and exceeding (or not making) one or two items should not automatically mean a 19. Bill G wrote: >We as judges with our lackluster manner of judging are destroying classic >beer styles. Too many judges' attitude is even though I know this beer >isn't quite to style but it's a great beer, I am going to give it a ribbon. > I say again if a beer isn't to style, it shouldn't win. See above. Sure, you don't want your competition to award a ribbon to a beer grossly out of style or to an infected beer. You want the ribbon to mean something. The best compromise, I think, is to set a minimum score for each place. If in "a flight of dunkels, say six or seven entries and all but one are infected and undrinkable", then sure, only one ribbon should be awareded, and that depends on the score of the "clean" beer. But the ribbon is a relative award. The blue ribbon signifies the best beer entered. No matter if that beer is an outstanding example of style (scores 49) or whether it is a great beer with a few minor flaws (scores 35). And as John DeC said, I have seen judges in the past year or so really nail a beer for being too big. I don't have a problem writing "this is a great beer, but too big for an ordinary bitter." or whatever. - Bryan Bryan Gros gros at bigfoot.com Oakland, CA Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website: http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm Q. In your opinion, what is the single most common error that I am likely to make, as a taxpayer? A. In our opinion, that would be having ``light'' beer in your refrigerator. - Dave Barry ------------------------------ From: Charles Hudak Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:41:04 -0800 Subject: Whoops Wow, I apologize for the poor editing on my last post (forgetting to cut off the remainder of the quoted from the digest) I would have thought that the janitor would have caught that and rejected it like the HBD does. Mea culpa C- ------------------------------ From: Tom Fitzpatrick Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:52:23 -0600 Subject: wrong category ... - ---------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles Hudak Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:28:23 Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1550 Charles writes: I really, really agree with this. Recently, at the AFCHBC we came across this very same problem. In the German Style ales category, we had three very good beers that just weren't Kolsch's. Consequently, they scored poorly. Two beers into the Alts, we opened a beer that made my partner and myself do a double take. Nice golden color, fruity aroma...I took a taste and looked across the table and said, "You know what?" My judging partner said, "Yeah, this is a great Kolsch". It scored very poorly because it just wasn't an Alt. We felt bad but we deferred to the score sheets which say "as appropriate to style" next to each category. I made a point of telling the brewer that it was a great beer...a great Kolsch, but it was too far off the mark to score well in the category in which it was entered. - ------------------------------------------------------ Ahhh! Did you think to ask the organizer if the beer was entered in the right category?? It is very possible (even probable!) that the wrong letter was attached to this entry by the entrant or the organizer. A good judge team will take the time to verify that indeed the entrant wanted the beer to be judged as an alt. As an organizer, I see this very mistake on the average of once each competition. In fact, I think it happens more frequently in the alt/koelsch category because the AHA actually swapped the lettering in this category a few years back! Charles, maybe you took this step. If so, it's still good to remind judges not to hesitate to ask their steward to double check the entry form. - -Tom Fitzpatrick ------------------------------ From: Al Korzonas Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:23:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: out of style John writes: >2) Beers that are "out of style" win. I know Al K. and I argued about >this most vigorously some years ago. I have in the past argued to give >an "out of style" score to Bavarian Weizens with zero spiciness or >fruitiness. > >I think I am a little less dogmatic today. However, I still lean away >from Al's approach of "simply take off points in each category without >regard to style". It does have a lot to say for it in terms of being a >consistent scoring approach. But I still feel in my heart that if a >style is identified by some key items and they are missing, it is out of >style. I also believe that in the case of close styles, that if a beer >is more of an ESB than a regular Bitter (and those are two separate >styles in your competition), then it is out of style. The comments >should say "This is a really good beer, but it is not a Bitter because it >exceeds the guidelines. Enter it as an ESB and it may win a prize." Hold on there... I never said "simply take off points in each category without regard to style." I don't think I would have reached BJCP master level with that kind of attitude. What I said was, take off points in each category *BASED* on the style and let the score fall where it may. Occasionally, I will go back and shave a few more points off or add a few because I look at the final score and say to myself: "Self... this score is a touch too high (or low) for this beer." Let's say, we did have a "perfect" Bavarian Weizen made with Wyeast #1056... Aroma: nice wheaty aroma; no off aromas; clovey/banana aroma missing; 4/10 Appearance: golden; nice head retention; appropriate clarity; 6/6 Flavour: excellent balance... just enough bitterness to balance malt sweetness; nice wheaty flavour; perfect conditioning; clove/banana flavour missing; 9/19 Body: medium-full; creamy; 5/5 D+OI: very tasty beer; excellent American Wheat, but missing clove and banana required of a Bavarian Weizen; I urge you to try the same recipe with Wyeast #3068 or another Bavarian Weizen yeast; 5/10 TOTAL 29/50 I really can't see taking off much more for Flavour or D+OI because it was a pleasant beer... actually, I initially gave it 10 for Flavour, but lowered it to 9 because I felt that 30 was too high a score. It is unfortunate that the current scoring guidelines say that 25 to 29 is a "Good" example of the style... it should say that a beer could get a score in this range that is well-made but missing some key attribute of the style. If all the rest of the beers were infected and oxidized, then I would give this a ribbon altough I would probably suggest giving it the 3rd place and not awarding the 1st or 2nd. Even if you simply write 24 at the bottom of the scoresheet when the Bavarian Weizen is missing cloves, fine, but then do you also give 24 to IPAs and Bitters that don't have any hop aroma? I know that some guidelines specifically say "medium to high hop aroma" for both these categories (whether this is right or wrong is a different debate). You have to ask yourself: What exactly are we trying to accomplish here? * Are we judging because we want to encourage the brewer to brew better beer? * Are we judging because we enjoy tasting the occasional gem? * Are we judging because we like to spend an afternoon with others that like to judge beer? or * Are we judging because we want LORD OUR EXPERTISE OVER SOME ANONYMOUS BREWER AND GRIND THEM INTO THE GROUND? How many of you would be willing to offer the same comments on the beer if the brewer was standing there next to you? I don't think I've written anything I'm not willing to say to the brewers face. I know I've had to write "fecal" and "babydiaper" on some scoresheets, but I think I could say these things to the brewer as long as I could add, "maybe" and "a touch of..." I did judge one beer that smelled exactly like urine. I couldn't find a polite or disarming way to write that, so I believe I just wrote "strong off aroma... most likely infected." Al. ------------------------------ From: "John W. Rhymes" Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:59:18 +0000 Subject: Expectations of competitions > From: "Doug A. Mccullough" > Subject: Waste Your Money, Time and Beer! > > Calling all Homebrewers, > Want to throw some money and time into a black hole? The best way is to > enter the Crescent City Homebrewing Contest! As president of the Birmingham Brewmasters and organizer of the Heart of Dixie Brew-Off, I was disappointed by Doug's slam of the Crescent City competition. While he makes some valid points, his approach leaves much to be desired and is inappropriate for this forum. As one who has just been through the wringer, I am acutely aware of the complexity of organizing a large event and effectively managing an all volunteer staff. Rather than getting engaged in a flame-fest, let's focus on what judges and entrants should expect from a competition, keeping in mind that we are dealing with unpaid volunteers putting on the events. We've had discussions on JudgeNet on the objectives of competitions. My goals were to treat our judges well, treat our entrants well, showcase the local brewing community, and to break even and build for the future. As a travelling judge, I want to have an enjoyable weekend when I go to a competition. Planned events and guidance on places to go add a lot to the experience -- you don't want to be in a strange city wondering where to go. I think lunch should always be provided -- not only as a courtesy but also to keep your judges in one place. Judges are the key to a successful competition -- you want them to enjoy their trip and keep coming back! Entrants are looking for feedback and the chance to win prizes and recognition. Good prizes will bring in more entrants; Quality feedback will build repeat business. I believe timeliness of results is important. Our entry form included a space for email addresses so we could notify entrants when results were posted to our web page. The email address also allowed me to resolve some entry information omissions and notify the winners directly. The key question is what should be the standard for getting scoresheets and prizes to the entrants? We've sent out all of the outside scoresheet-only mailings and plan to have the last ribbons and prizes shipped by the end of next week, though I am being cheap and waiting 2-1/2 weeks until the club meeting to distribute scoresheets to club members who weren't at the competition, and will present club member's ribbons at the meeting. (We didn't get the ribbons filled out at the competition). Sorry about the long post. I think it's important to focus our attention on improving competitions and judging rather than emphasizing anyone's past shortcomings. While I've gotten very positive feedback on our first effort, I am acutely aware of all the things we could have done better, and was distressed to see one of our folks slamming someone else's efforts. John W. Rhymes -- Birmingham, Alabama jwrhymes at mindspring.com ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1552 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.