Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.26]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15908 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:57:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from stayhungry.rs.itd.umich.edu (stayhungry.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.42]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA22599 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:57:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root at localhost) by stayhungry.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.5) with X.500 id AAA26989; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:57:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu6.psi.com (uu6.psi.com [38.145.155.3]) by stayhungry.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.5) with SMTP id AAA26971; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:57:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA22343 for spencer at umich.edu; Thu, 26 Mar 98 00:57:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA05548 for judge-digest-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:02:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:02:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199803260502.AAA05548 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1556 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Thursday, 26 March 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1556 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Punitive Damages Requested Derogative descriptors Offensive behavior infected beers RE: judge-digest V1 #1555 Dear Fecal Net CBG: St. Pat's Competition - Final Results Re: Offensive behavior Re: Offensive behavior Re: judge-digest V1 #1550 Fecal aromas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: meadmanb Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 08:36:48 -0400 Subject: Punitive Damages Requested I am writing to get some opinions on punishment for actions unbecoming a homebrewer and certainly way out demeanor from anyone known to be involved in judging and organizing competitions. I recently heard from a distressed friend who had received back score sheets and ribbons from a competition with disparaging stuff on them. Now we all have heard of penis envy and we've all been exposed to brewers with incredible egos and the desire to win ribbons but....I've never heard of anyone running a competition being so petty and childish as to make or allow behaviour like this stuff into the realm of brewing. When a person enters beers and pays money for advertised analysis and competitive ranking from a recognized competition, it seems criminal to return ribbons to the award winning brewer with remarks attached to the ribbon demeaning the entrant. How would you feel if your hard earned money was spent to labor over malt and hops for hours days + months before you could taste it and send it into a local competition of your peers, only to be publicly ridiculed and talked about behind your back , after having beaten the best brewers in the crowd in their own game. What the f___ is that all about and how are we going to deal with hairballs who condone such despicable and tawdry behaviour. If I got my ribbons back with "Bruce Stevens-MALT scumbag " on it, I would be taken aback. I thought I had friends in this business ???? If Al Korzonas had his ribbons attached with "AL K + Adolf Hitler - Brew buddies" on it, would he be cranky ??? If Mike Hall had received his back with "Michael K. Hall 4th, Ph.D.+ SATAN" on them, it probably would make him wonder what he ever did to get that kind of chicken shit crap from a beer dweeb in the back room of some Colorado competition hall that he'd been supporting for years by entering. This is not funny and it is not going to be allowed to pass without retribution and a full scale "Guild of Brewers & Judges" Kangaroo Court investigation. I am flabbergasted that this lowlife behaviour has encroached into a hobby as noble as brewing and will not take it anymore. I find it especially appalling to have been at a judge table, more than a year ago, when some "judges" made similarly "funny remarks" about this same "hated homebrewer", now receiving this years ribbons adulterated , when he finished in the top 3 at the National Cider competition. When his name was mentioned there was a groan of disbelief and someone wondered out loud if we should re-examine that category to "jokingly" eliminate this accomplished brewer from the ribbon count. I was stunned to hear such comments and while I know that the opposing team (club) loves to hate the star batter , booing/hissing when they come to the plate , it's just low to demean people after they beat you fair and square. It's certainly not sporting. This written attack occured recently after their local competition (also a MCAB event) and I guess what I heard last year was only a prelude to the seething hatred building in the loins of this over the hill beer club ------------------------------ From: Jeff Renner Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:21:15 -0500 Subject: Derogative descriptors The discussion of "fecal," etc. reminds me of an unfortunate incident a couple of years ago. A local monthly magazine (which is sent free to every household and is well read) held a blind tasting of Ann Arbor and SE Michigan micro and brewpub beers. Dan McConnell and I were BJCP judges from the Ann Arbor Brewers' Guild, and there were also the magazine's former restaurant reviewer and another foodie, plus a couple of beer fans. The current restaurant reviewer took notes. There were way too many beers, but I think we did them justice. One out of town beer had a terrible infection problem - it smelled of vomit, which was what I said - "smells of vomit," and went on to say that this was from buturic acid and was an indication of a spoilage infection. Unfortunately, what the reviewer wrote down, and what was printed, was "This is vomit." He sent our quotes to us for review before publication, and I corrected him, but he claimed never to have got my email. I sent him and his editor a copy of his reply quoting it, (he later found it in the wrong Eudora box), so I got an apology and printed correction in the next edition. The damage was done, however, and friends and acquaintances commented on that for months when I ran into them. Unfortunately, the whole tone of the article lacked seriousness as well, treating the tasting rather like a fraternity party. Jeff - -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. ------------------------------ From: Bill Giffin Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:21:08 -0500 Subject: Offensive behavior Gentlemen, Included in the list of winners in the 1998 Boston Homebrew Competition was the following: "3) Thomas J O'Connor III MD and Satan, Rockport ME (MALT), Export 80" Tom O'Connor didn't include the "and Satan" on his forms and was greatly hurt by the offensive behavior of the Boston Wort Processors and the Boston Homebrew Competition. Tom, who has won the New England Homebrewer of the Year for the past three years, was the only one of the winners to be singled out with an offensive addition to their name as a winner. Tom has had a number of the members of the Wort Processors in his home as his guests when they have come to Maine to judge. Tom's only offense as I see it is that the Boston Wort Processors couldn't beat him for Homebrewer of the Year. Tom has contributed by judging at as many competitions as his busy schedule allows. I feel that the Boston Homebrew Competition and the Boston Wort Processors should publicly apologize to Tom O'Connor as well as in writing. I also feel that the condemnation of the B.J.C.P. the AHA and the homebrewing community should fall upon the Boston Wort Processors. Bill Giffin Past-President Maine Ale and Lager Tasters (M.A..LT) Richmond, Maine ------------------------------ From: "Bryan L. Gros" Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:36:06 -0800 Subject: infected beers While we're talking about enteric infections, I have another question. Is there a "proper" procedure for judging gushers? I recently entered a porter to a local competition and got three score sheets back. All three were blank except for the 19 at the bottom. Two sheets said "gusher" at the very top. I have to assume that the beers was immediately dumped and no attempt to judge it was made. I think my beer was simply overcarbonated and perhaps it was judged late in the flight and it had gotten fairly warm. Although it is possible that the bottle in question had become infected from bottling. (The beer at home in the keg is fine; it was overcarbonated and quite cold prior to CPFing the bottles. I didn't realize it was as overcarbonated as it turned out to be.) Is such an overcarbonated beer "out of style by kind"? If the beer is infected, I can see where it is probably severe enough to warrant a 19. If the beer is not infected, the judges owe it to the entrant to judge the beer. Carbonation effects the way many aspects of the beer are perceived, and an overcarbonated beer will likely score bad. On a related note, I notice while juding Bav. Weizen that many are overcarbonated. I'm not sure where to draw the line for this style, but a lot of brewers flirt with that threshold between high carbonation and too high carbonation. - Bryan Bryan Gros gros at bigfoot.com Oakland, CA Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website: http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm Q. In your opinion, what is the single most common error that I am likely to make, as a taxpayer? A. In our opinion, that would be having "light" beer in your refrigerator. - Dave Barry ------------------------------ From: John Weerts Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:53:16 -0600 Subject: RE: judge-digest V1 #1555 In judge-digest #1555 Dion Hollenbeck writes. I think the key to being able to return score sheets quickly is organization, and in particular, a database on a computer (Bill Giffen's previous protests that computers have no place in competitions notwithstanding). On the day following the competition, we can have the envelopes with scoresheets and medals ready to mail out in about 3 hours of one person's time. The reason we can do this is that we are able to print out two sets of labels from the computer database. One label is a standard mailing label, and one per brewer is put on a 9x12 brown envelope. The second set of labels are in entry number order, with full brewer info, category and subcategory and any medal or BOS info printed on them. The envelopes with mailing labels are laid out in alphabetical order. It is as simple as picking up a stapled set of score sheets for one entry, peeling off the entry number order label and affixing it to the top sheet. If it says a place, grab a medal for that place, and put all on top of correct envelope. When all are parcelled out, add a results sheet to every envelope and seal up the contents. Weighing and affixing postage for out of town entrants will take another couple of hours. I did all this for 270 entries last year by myself in half a day. There is no reason it should take any longer than this. Results should be in the brewers hands in no more than a week from the time of the competition. As John Rhymes stated, the immediacy of the Internet can be a double edged sword. In last year's AFCHBC results, I had to post two corrections the day after the competition, because in my haste to post the results, I introduced errors. This year we were able to have the full results of the 1998 AFCHBFC on our web site by Sunday morning, and notification that they were posted was posted to all the relevant digests and newsgroups early Sunday as well. dion Judge Coordinator 1998 America's Finest City Homebrew Competition Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor http://www.softbrew.com/afchbc While I agree that it is important to provide the brewers the judges responses ASAP, we need to keep in mind that a key factor to successful competitions is the review and scoring of judges and their ability to provide comments that balance with the scores provided. The day after the competition is not the best time to review the sheets, organizers need the break to clear their minds. We posted the results of the competition to the brewers that provided us e-mail addresses on the entry form, on Monday after the competition and posted the final information on the Web on Wednesday after the Competition, for the rest of the world. Our judging sheets went out on following weekend after Steve (this year's coordinator) had time to review the sheets. The review process is critical to overall success of future competitions. Information gained help to guide future judge combinations. We try to balance the strengths of our judge panels, if you rush out the score sheet you can not obtain the knowledge needed to perform this task. I feel the way we handled this year's competition provided all of the information back to the brewers in a timely manner, that should not have offended anyone. The time spent also allows us to look forward to the next competition, with the knowledge that we will provide the entrants the best possible feedback on their beers - which is why they entered. Now having said all of that we also had most of the prep-work done at the competition this year. We separated the score sheets while we keyed them in the computer (oops we are one those type of comp.). After the place finishers were entered in the computer we printed the labels for the back of the ribbons and attached them. We tally up the results for all of the special awards. These tasks are completed in time to sit back and enjoy dinner before the award ceremony. On that following Monday I e-mail Steve the final proof of our competition mailer and we sent the final copy to the printer on that Wednesday. For those of you who have not seen our final mailer it is very inclusive: Recap of the event, List of special prizes and winners, Category place finishers (44 groups this year), List of judges (Thanks to all), and List of participating club (Thanks to all). This year's mailer was either 5 or 7 pages front and back. With 441 entries this year I feel that a complete turn around of score sheets in a week was wonderful. On a separate note on our Best of Show panel we strive to have a mix of 2 KCBM Members, 1 who traveled a great distance to judge, 1 past KCBM member or a regional judge (i.e. St Louis Brews, Topeka Hall of Foamer, Derby Brew Club, or an independent). With 441 entries in 44 categories it would be tough to say "Hey, that is Bob's beer", especially in the thought that we had 109 entrants representing 39 clubs from 19 states coast to coast. Of course judge selection is subject to place finishers and their availability as a BOS judge. Just some thoughts In Brewing, John R. Weerts ------------------------------ From: "Reed,Randy" Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:32:48 -0500 Subject: Dear Fecal Net Just a little tip for all of you with these recent "foul aroma" comments: If you cover your beer sample glasses with your hand, swirl them, and sample their aromas, discovering each one to have a FECAL or URINE aroma, it may mean that you haven't washed your hands well enough after your rest-room break. ------------------------------ From: "Alan D. Hord" Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:23:21 -0800 Subject: CBG: St. Pat's Competition - Final Results Fellow brewers, judges, and aficionados - The final results and statistics from the 1998 St. Patrick's Cascadia Cup Homebrew Competition are now available at: http://www.nwmarket.com/cbg/default.asp?np=1998SP_results01.asp We had 37% growth over last year's competition with 173 entries representing 27 styles, and overall - was a resounding success! Best of Show Winner: Jim Garrison of Everett, Washington, for his entry "Columbus IPA", an English-Style Pale Ale|India Pale Ale (5b). Jim is a member of the Cascade Brewers Guild. Congrats Jim on a fine job! All judge comments and awards will be sent out to paid entrants within a 7 to 10 days. The Cascade Brewers Guild thanks the following for helping with this competition: Andy Corbett - Redhook Liasion Alan Hord - Competition Organizer Chris Williams - Judge Coordinator Bill Roth - Head Steward Judy Thomas and Rich Kiepke - Administative Support Redhook Ale Brewery and staff The members of the Cascade Brewers Guild All official sponsors and homebrew shops The members of the homebrew clubs of the Puget Sound The Judges, Stewards and Volunteers as yet mentioned Best, Alan - President, Cascade Brewers Guild http://www.nwmarket.com/cbg/ ------------------------------ From: "Tom Ayres" Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:56:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Offensive behavior Bill-- On second thought, the reference to Mr. O'Connor's brewing partner must have been a data base error. Satan, it seems, was judging the lambics. Cheers again, Tom Ayres ------------------------------ From: "Tom Ayres" Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:54:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Offensive behavior Hmmmm . . . and EYE think everyone needs to lighten up. Shades of the Great Massachusetts-Maine Homebrew Wars again. Next thing you know Victor Belligerent will be coming out of the woodwork as well. Hey, everybody . . . GET A LIFE! Cheers, Tom Ayres ------------------------------ From: Chris Harber Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 19:06:09 -0500 Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1550 owner-judge-digest at synchro.com wrote: > > judge-digest Monday, 16 March 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1550 > > ============================================================================ > J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t > ============================================================================ > > Moderator: Chuck Cox > Archivist: Spencer Thomas > Publisher: SynchroSystems > > Submissions: judge at synchro.com > Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com > Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge > BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com > > ============================================================================ > contents: > > Re: judge-digest V1 #1549 > Re: judge-digest V1 #1548 Who to pick as Best-of-Show judges > Heart of Dixie Brew-Off Results > re: bigness > Styles, or style > Last Call for Judges > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: OudBruin > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:09:26 EST > Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1549 > > Re: Vernon Valley-clemens brewery > From: Bruce Hammell > Jim Busch mentioned the now defunct brewery run (as I recall) under the > clemons name in vernon valley, N.J. > The non gloved michael Jackson said that the plant produced (arguably) some > of the best beer in North America. The Equiptment still is there at last > report (over a year ago), and includer a boudelot cooler, and wooden > fermenters. > The entire pourpose of this missive is to find out the fate of the plant,I > understand that a swiss company purchased everything in vernon valley > following the bankruptcy of the ski resort(maybe, they intend on speculating > on sale of same, as beachfront property??talk about long term planning of > global warming!!!) > If anyone knows who what and were the equiptment is and whats going on with > it.. i'd like to know.. > Meanwhile, whats this crap that everyone from N.J. has to send thier entries > to atlanta for the nationals.. > I think i'll eschew that debacle.. > That fat brewer from New Jersey > Oudbruin, sayin "brew safe, brew happy" > > ------------------------------ > > From: Stephen Murphrey > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:44:39 -0500 > Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1548 Who to pick as Best-of-Show judges > > George De Piro makes an interesting point, but I think following his advice would > be a disservice to some good best-of-show (BOS) judge candidates. Most > competitions pick only locals for BOS judges. If we rule out our local, qualified > candidates, where are they going to get to be BOS judges? Brooklyn is a pretty > long trip from Raleigh. George's suggestion would only work if all competitions > abided by that guideline (when possible). > > As the director of judges at the Shamrock Open competition yesterday, I had to > pick BOS judges. I needed 3 BOS judges because of the size of our competion (100 > entries). My goal was to pick 1 judge from each of the 2 local homebrew clubs, > plus 1 from out of town. (I actually picked 2 judges from my club and 1 > out-of-towner, because the candidates from the other club excluded themselves by > winning blue ribbons or by smoking cigars during lunch.) Last year, when we had > enough entries for 4 BOS judges, I used 2 out-of-town judges plus 1 from each > local club. I had 1 other qualified out-of-town candidate available, but it > seemed unfair to the locals to overload the panel with out-of-towners. > > If all competitions would follow George's suggestion, then I'd be all for it. It > would encourage more out-of-town attendance - very important to competitions in > low-population areas like Raleigh. But it's not a concept that could be > enforced. So the smaller competitions today have no recourse but to ask locals to > be BOS judges. Maybe we should all stop traveling to competitions that exclude > out-of-towners from their BOS panels. Would that be a way of enforcing George's > concept? > > Steve Murphrey > CARBOY (Cary-Apex-Raleigh Brewers of Yore) > > ------------------------------ > > From: "John W. Rhymes" > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:01:39 +0000 > Subject: Heart of Dixie Brew-Off Results > > On March 14, the Birmingham Brewmasters hosted the first major > homebrew competition held in the state of Alabama. An excellent > panel of 37 judges assembled to evaluate 155 entries from 14 states. > All entries were evaluated by three judges, and the judge panel > was led by 18 BJCP judges and 6 professional head brewers. > > Best of Show went to Doug McCullough of the Birmingham Brewmasters > for his traditional Bock. Best Ale went to Ed Sieja of the Madison > (AL) Sobriety Club for his Belgian Tripel. Best Lager went to Lee > Theuriet of the Stanislaus Hoppy Cappers (CA) for his Vienna. > > Our special category was Potato beers in honor of St. Patrick's Day. > Best Potato Beer went to Brian Dueweke of Weekend Brewers in > Richmond, Virginia, for his Sweet Potato Stout. > > See our web site at http:\\www.bham.net\brew\brew-off.html for > details of the competition and a full list of winners and sponsors > (plus pictures!). We had great prizes from from our sponsors and an > excellent weekend. Future competitions will be on the weekend > closest to St. Patrick's Day, so keep us in mind! > > John W. Rhymes -- Birmingham, Alabama > jwrhymes at mindspring.com > > ------------------------------ > > From: Bill Giffin > Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:00:22 -0500 > Subject: re: bigness > > Top of the morning to yea all, > > Lisa Gros said: > "I think it is too simplistic to say that if a beer is too big disqualify > it or that it should not win. There is more too it than that." > > It is that simple. > > Gees it looks like Al K would like to include any beer that even smells > like a dopplebock. Perhaps he is correct. Then the guideline for every > style would be the same just the name of the category would change. > > Bill > > ------------------------------ > > From: Bill Giffin > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:45:52 -0500 > Subject: Styles, or style > > Top of the morning to yea all, > > I have to say Norm does like to shout. Usually this is an indication that > the person who is shouting knows that he is wrong but tries to intimidate > with noise. > > Much of what a style guideline is, is a range. A low and a high original > gravity are given for a particular style. Statically in a realistic range > the majority of the range will fall about the mean. With small percentage > falling at the extremes. Yet in homebrewing the majority of the winning > beers fall within the high extreme of the range where very few example of > the style really fall. So if a beer is 4 or 5 points above the high side > of the guidelines then it is way out of style not just a couple of points. > So if you as a judge know that the beer is out of style then it shouldn't win! > > Go to the extreme, if you are judging a flight of dunkels, say six or seven > entries and all but one are infected and undrinkable. The remaining beer > is a very good doppelbock, should it win as a dunkel? The doppelbock has > the right color, hopping and flavor does it get first place? My answer is > no. I think that your answer should also be no. > > Norm said: > "Of course, the classic beer styles should be preserved and passed on! > But not at the expense of homebrewing not being a fun and interactive > Social endeavor." > > How in the world does maintaining classic beer styles interfere with > homebrewing being fun and an interactive social endeavor? When we play > horseshoes we try to put the shoe around the stake or as close to that as > we can get. That's fun, why isn't getting your beer that you want to be a > particular style be as close to that style as possible? > > We as judges with our lackluster manner of judging are destroying classic > beer styles. Too many judges' attitude is even though I know this beer > isn't quite to style but it's a great beer, I am going to give it a ribbon. > I say again if a beer isn't to style, it shouldn't win. > > That doesn't mean you can't tell the brewer that their entry was a great > beer, just entered in the wrong category. > > Bill > > ------------------------------ > > From: "Reed,Randy" > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:06:05 -0500 > Subject: Last Call for Judges > > South Shore Brewoff Homebrew Competition Dedicated to Quality Feedback > > The third annual South Shore Brewoff will be held about an hour south of > Boston, in Cranston RI, just off Interstate 95. The deadline for entries is > March 21st, and the actual event will be March 28th. We expect a > significant increase in entries due to an increase in convenient drop off > points. Great food and a thank you gift will be given to those who > pre-register and work the event. > > The goal of the competition is to provide amateur brewers with quality > objective feedback on their efforts. Our club has a number of national, > certified, and recognized BJCP judges among our ranks, but we need > assistance from other clubs to get all the judging done. > > Please consider entering and/or judging our event. All drop off points are > stocked with entry forms: > > Witches Brew - Foxboro, MA > Boston Brewin' - Beverly, MA > Northeast Brewers Supply - Providence, RI > Pawtucket Homebrewing Supply - Pawtucket, RI > Hoppy Brewer - Seekonk, MA 02771 > Barley Malt & Vine - Newton, MA 02161 > Narragansett Homebrew Supply - Wakefield, RI 02879 > Brew Horizons - Coventry, RI 02816 > The Modern Brewer - Cambridge, MA 02140 > The Vineyard - Upton, MA 01568 > > Interested in judging or stewarding? Contact Stephen Rose at 508- 821-4152 > for entry forms. Only pre-registered staff can attend. Any questions about > the competition regulation, procedures, awards, etc., should be answered by > the entry forms or can be directed to: > > Glenn Markel 508-226-3249 or (GRMARKEL at aol.com) > Randy Reed 781-341-8170 (RREED at Foxboro.com) > > Entry forms for judging can be found at our web site. > Http://members.aol.com/brewclub You can fill them in, paste them in an > email, and return them to me or mail them to Stephen. > > Hope to see you there! > > Randy > > ------------------------------ > > End of judge-digest V1 #1550 > **************************** > > Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. > Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored. Last night I was so drunk that I peed in my own mouth. - -=Doc=- http://members.tripod.com/~JesusChrist666 ------------------------------ From: karnowski at juno.com (Thomas p karnowsk) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:50:17 -0500 Subject: Fecal aromas Various people wrote to defend the use of fecal on score sheets, particularly with lambic beers. Tom writes: I agree, we don't want to have an "official BJCP no-no word list" even if I would never use fecal to describe a beer. Thus, perhaps I will lighten up and point out that some words are a bit loaded, and utilizing such words should be done with caution. Randy Paul's (and others) context seemed perfectly reasonable to me. The folks who got the fecal comment (for a bitter, not a lambic) would not have been put-off by Randy's notes. Thus, I suspect their sheet did not have enough verbage to assure them that the judge was trying to help them, not insult them. A simple, point-blank "disclaimer" like "I do not intend to poke fun at your entry, but I detect a strong fecal-like note that is probably an enteric infection..." would satsify me that the judge is not trying to eloquently say the beer is shitty. I like Randy's suggestion about judges who haphazardly and inconsiderately slap the words around; unfortunately they would probably suffer palate fatigue pretty quickly! I guess we found some folks who have written "fecal" on scoresheets! I hope they all also wrote enough to educate the folks who brewed the beer and paid money to enter it in a competiton. Mr. Hudak wrote: This is not a clever way for the judge to say that their beer tastes like crap but rather a description of the flavor(s) present. To which I say: Perhaps it is a description of the flavors present, but if it is, the judge should be aware that saying "fecal" may give the brewer heartburn if it isn't presented in the proper light. Not every brewer who enters your competition has read Guinard and may not understand that when you say fecal you are really identifying an actual trait, especially if you do not put additional information on the sheet. Their beer was not the best I ever tasted but I personally did not detect an aroma of feces. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1556 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.