Subject: Digest for the period 2/27/02 - 2/28/02 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:03:59 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC556143A228" --Next_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deciding awards (Dave Sapsis) RE: Call for Graders (Houseman, David L) Re: Judge's Resposibilities/competitions (Bill Wible) Re: Digest for the period 2/26/02 - 2/27/02 (JayAnkeney`at`aol.com) low scores? (Great Scott!) Thanks, and D'Oh!!! (Peter Garofalo) Re: Judge's Responsibilities/competitions (blutick`at`juno.com) --Next_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC556143A228" --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.49]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC55374398AB for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:22:31 -0500 Received: from sdn-ar-021casfrmp055.dialsprint.net ([158.252.249.57] helo=dsapsislp2) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16fxTs-00050N-00 for judge`at`synchro.com; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:22:25 -0800 Message-ID: <002901c1bec8$3b7a6c20$39f9fc9e`at`dsapsislp2> From: "Dave Sapsis" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: deciding awards Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:19:33 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message A lot a contorted logic has been tossed about concerning what role judges play in determining winners, and the problems that invariably arise in amateur beer competitions. But Bill Wibble steps in dogshit when he claims: >Actually, it's NOT just a medal, ribbon, or whatever. You've obviously >never been involved with organizing a competition. All winners get >prizes, in addition to ribbons. Maybe Bill, you haven't entered too many contests. About half of the hundred -odd contests I have entered over the last umpteen years didn't award anything other than a ribbon. And to get all high-horse about fairness, without recognizing the fundamental role that *both* judges and competition staff play in seeing that out, well, thats plain weak. Competitions differ. Some organizers determine minimum score, others don't. That is their perogotive. Some judges beleive themselves infallible. Show them otherwise. Some comps have a real tough time getting sufficient judges. Go help them out. Sometimes beers get ribbons, even from small flights. Celebrate with the winner. >I think arrogant is writing with such an attitude about something you >obviously have no experience with. Dude, go to the corner, take a few breaths, and come back with a better argument, becuase this one makes you look like the poster boy of judge arrogance. --dave sapsis --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from bbmail1-out.unisys.com ([192.63.108.40]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5546439C0F for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:17:49 -0500 Received: from us-bb-gtwy-1.bb.unisys.com (us-bb-gtwy-1.bb.unisys.com [192.63.78.151]) by bbmail1-out.unisys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19188 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:54:52 GMT Received: by us-bb-gtwy-1.bb.unisys.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:55:20 -0500 Message-ID: <2AC56C48182B4349AB1906257952AF980EA094`at`USTR-EXCH2.na.uis.unisys.com> From: "Houseman, David L" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: RE: Call for Graders Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:55:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I'd like to support Peter's call for graders. Don't forget that those of you who wish to eventually achieve Grand Master status will need service credits to the BJCP and grading exams is a key way to earn that credit. Grading is also an excellent way to learn since examinees can be very creative in their presentation of answers and it forces graders to continually rethink these questions and occasionally look up commercial examples and other facts. It provides yet another way to stay involved in the hobby when you can't brew or drink. It is a time commitment with perhaps a total of 1 hour or so spent grading each exam. As you gain experience grading and become a lead grader, it may take you another 1/2-1 hour to write up each RTP. Grading is rewarding in a number of ways and I encourage those that are interested and want to progress in the BJCP to contact Peter. But be sure you can live up to the commitment to complete the grading in the time required before you sign up. BTW, Peter, are you sure it's .2pt/exam as lead grader and not .15pt/exam as lead grader? Dave Houseman --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from diskless7.axs2000.net ([209.120.196.45]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5547439D00 for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:57:48 -0500 Received: from [64.80.86.137] (ppp-086-137.verio.axs2000.net [64.80.86.137]) by diskless7.axs2000.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1RGuiD26667; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:56:44 -0500 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:57:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Judge's Resposibilities/competitions From: Bill Wible Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Jim, Maybe I'm misunderstanding. When you say "All the awards should be given", I'm assuming you mean that categories should not be combined, and that each category should be given a prize, regardless of the number of beers. My comments were written assuming this was what you were saying, and that is where the 3 beers in a category and the prize valuations were coming from. It seems that this is not what you meant, after reading your last post. You were apparently involved in a competition where one of the categories, which was a large category, had no prizes or ribbons awarded, because every entry in the category scored less than the minimum score required for a prize. I must say, I've never heard of this, and if it did happen in my experience, I would probably be upset, too. I can't believe a category with more than say, 7 entries, would not have at least one good one. If this happened, I'd look at all the scores overall, and possibly question storage of the entries, or how they were handled after they were accepted. Failing that, I'd have to look at the judges who were assigned to that single category. It's unusual for every single beer in a large category to be bad. I did not mean to "go off" on you, it seems I just misunderstood what you were saying, and I apologize. Bill -------------------------- Brew By You 3504 Cottman Ave. Philadelphia, PA 19149 215-335-BREW (PA) 215-335-0712 (Fax) www.brewbyyou.net --------------------------- --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.6]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5551439EBE for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:44:52 -0500 Received: from JayAnkeney`at`aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id u.106.dead01f (4206) for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:44:39 -0500 (EST) From: JayAnkeney`at`aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Message-ID: <106.dead01f.29ae9f36`at`aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:44:38 EST Subject: Re: Digest for the period 2/26/02 - 2/27/02 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 44 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message In a message dated 2/26/02 10:06:47 PM, judge`at`synchro.com writes: << Subject: Organizer's Fault????? Jay Ankeney writes to agree with Jim Layton: >> Dear JudgeNet, You don't need to publish this (unless you want to), but I am totally baffled how Bill could claim I was saying "everybody deserves an award". My comments referred solely to the priopriety of awarding ribbons to just the qualifying 1st, 2nd and 3rd place winners in a given competition. You published a long response to my few lines, but its contents are really baffling. For future reference, should I expect that you put all responses on JudgeNet without editorial discretion? Anyone reading Bill's response who has not seen the complete thread will think that one of us is totally bananas. Jay Ankeney 220 39th St. Manhattan Beach, CA 90266 (310) 545-3983 --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from gilgamesh.nh.ultra.net ([207.172.11.22]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC555443A027 for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:56:36 -0500 Received: from [209.6.136.156] (209-6-136-156.s156.tnt1.mnh.nh.dialup.rcn.com [209.6.136.156]) by gilgamesh.nh.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult.n14767) with ESMTP id SAA31696 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:56:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:39:17 -0500 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Great Scott! Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Subject: low scores? X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I thought I was just going to be able to sit back and watch the thread continue to unravel (it started as a rant about specifying base styles, remember?), but...... Jay Ankeney writes, >Geez, its just a ribbon (or stein or medal or whatever). Zero cash value >to the recipient. Bragging rights amongst brewing buddies at best. Its >not like the judge's or the BJCP's credibility is on the line here. I beg to differ. Credibility is on the line. Each entrant has the right to forward what they believe to be unfair scoring or comments to the BJCP. And if brewers feel they are being unfairly scored low or comments out of line, they will lose the desire to compete, and we all can see where that will end. (please pardon my habit of seeing the ultimate worst side of any issue.) And... >The attitude that a beer isn't "good enough" for a competition's standards >belies not only a grinchy arrogance, it is an attempt to cover up the fact >that the organizers had not done their jobs well enough to attract good >brewers. Low scores reflect more about the competition than the beers entered. Low scores do not reflect the competition nor grinchy arrogance of the judges or organizers. With the wide diversity of judges and palates, low scores means beers that don't measure up to the standards that we, the BJCP, have set. Maybe our standards are too high, but I don't think so. Let's stop harping on eachother and start helping brewers brew better beer. It's our job. Scott Kaplan --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mailout5.nyroc.rr.com ([24.92.226.122]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC555643A0AC for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:21:59 -0500 Received: from peter (syr-24-92-233-115.twcny.rr.com [24.92.233.115]) by mailout5.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/Road Runner 1.12) with SMTP id g1S1LoM27434 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:21:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005c01c1bff6$15ddec10$73e95c18`at`peter> From: "Peter Garofalo" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Thanks, and D'Oh!!! Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:20:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message First off, thank to all who have graciously stepped up to help the BJCP where we need it most. The response has been rapid and impressive! Nest, I mis-spoke (or mis-wrote) when I said that lead graders received double the points for their grading efforts. They do receive a bonus, but I remembered incorrectly. As many of you know, the requirement for the Grand Master level includes grading 200 exams. The lead grader receives 1.5x the credit per exam toward this total. Therefore, one could grade 50 exams as "second" grader, then only 75 more as lead grader to more quickly fulfill the requirement. Possibly no big deal, but very important to some. Sorry about the confusion. Cheers, Peter Garofalo BJCP western exam director exam_director_west`at`bjcp.org --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from m5.jersey.juno.com ([64.136.16.68]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC555743A10A for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:18:49 -0500 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"uJiHWT5fQ41kJ23IKgbni+VvNwD71DROR60OWOsD5z0j+8L0N2ovkQ=="> Received: (from blutick`at`juno.com) by m5.jersey.juno.com (jqueuemail) id GUPXKKGQ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:18:35 EST To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:21:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Judge's Responsibilities/competitions Message-ID: <20020227.202118.-265871.0.blutick`at`juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-9,12-13,20-21,27-28,31-32 From: blutick`at`juno.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message >You were apparently involved in a > competition where one of the categories, which was a > large category, had no prizes or ribbons awarded, because > every entry in the category scored less than the minimum > score required for a prize. I must say, I've never heard > of this, and if it did happen in my experience, I would > probably be upset, too. Bill, I wish I had been clearer about that in my earlier post. In looking back, there were other points in that post that I should have been more careful in wording. To be more precise, only first place in that category was withheld. I entered and judged at the competition but I had no entries in that category, and I don't know what the scores were like. There was, to my recollection, no minimum cutoff score for awards ever mentioned in the competition flyer or judges instructions. This was a second round flight. I expect there would have been 30+ entries in the first round of that category. I first learned of the situation at the awards ceremony. Hey! What happened to First in XYZ category? I asked one of the competition staff about it immediately after the ceremony and he told me that one of the judges felt that none of the beers in the flight were worthy of first place and he got his way. The staffer didn't like it any better than I did, but it was a done deal by that time. Water under the bridge now, but I hope this discussion causes judges and organizers to think about how they would handle a similar situation in the future. Jim Layton --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228-- --Next_Part_SYNC556143A228-- Subject: Digest for the period 2/27/02 - 2/28/02 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:03:59 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC556143A228" --Next_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deciding awards (Dave Sapsis) RE: Call for Graders (Houseman, David L) Re: Judge's Resposibilities/competitions (Bill Wible) Re: Digest for the period 2/26/02 - 2/27/02 (JayAnkeney`at`aol.com) low scores? (Great Scott!) Thanks, and D'Oh!!! (Peter Garofalo) Re: Judge's Responsibilities/competitions (blutick`at`juno.com) --Next_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC556143A228" --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.49]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC55374398AB for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:22:31 -0500 Received: from sdn-ar-021casfrmp055.dialsprint.net ([158.252.249.57] helo=dsapsislp2) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16fxTs-00050N-00 for judge`at`synchro.com; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:22:25 -0800 Message-ID: <002901c1bec8$3b7a6c20$39f9fc9e`at`dsapsislp2> From: "Dave Sapsis" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: deciding awards Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:19:33 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message A lot a contorted logic has been tossed about concerning what role judges play in determining winners, and the problems that invariably arise in amateur beer competitions. But Bill Wibble steps in dogshit when he claims: >Actually, it's NOT just a medal, ribbon, or whatever. You've obviously >never been involved with organizing a competition. All winners get >prizes, in addition to ribbons. Maybe Bill, you haven't entered too many contests. About half of the hundred -odd contests I have entered over the last umpteen years didn't award anything other than a ribbon. And to get all high-horse about fairness, without recognizing the fundamental role that *both* judges and competition staff play in seeing that out, well, thats plain weak. Competitions differ. Some organizers determine minimum score, others don't. That is their perogotive. Some judges beleive themselves infallible. Show them otherwise. Some comps have a real tough time getting sufficient judges. Go help them out. Sometimes beers get ribbons, even from small flights. Celebrate with the winner. >I think arrogant is writing with such an attitude about something you >obviously have no experience with. Dude, go to the corner, take a few breaths, and come back with a better argument, becuase this one makes you look like the poster boy of judge arrogance. --dave sapsis --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from bbmail1-out.unisys.com ([192.63.108.40]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5546439C0F for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:17:49 -0500 Received: from us-bb-gtwy-1.bb.unisys.com (us-bb-gtwy-1.bb.unisys.com [192.63.78.151]) by bbmail1-out.unisys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19188 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:54:52 GMT Received: by us-bb-gtwy-1.bb.unisys.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:55:20 -0500 Message-ID: <2AC56C48182B4349AB1906257952AF980EA094`at`USTR-EXCH2.na.uis.unisys.com> From: "Houseman, David L" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: RE: Call for Graders Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:55:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I'd like to support Peter's call for graders. Don't forget that those of you who wish to eventually achieve Grand Master status will need service credits to the BJCP and grading exams is a key way to earn that credit. Grading is also an excellent way to learn since examinees can be very creative in their presentation of answers and it forces graders to continually rethink these questions and occasionally look up commercial examples and other facts. It provides yet another way to stay involved in the hobby when you can't brew or drink. It is a time commitment with perhaps a total of 1 hour or so spent grading each exam. As you gain experience grading and become a lead grader, it may take you another 1/2-1 hour to write up each RTP. Grading is rewarding in a number of ways and I encourage those that are interested and want to progress in the BJCP to contact Peter. But be sure you can live up to the commitment to complete the grading in the time required before you sign up. BTW, Peter, are you sure it's .2pt/exam as lead grader and not .15pt/exam as lead grader? Dave Houseman --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from diskless7.axs2000.net ([209.120.196.45]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5547439D00 for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:57:48 -0500 Received: from [64.80.86.137] (ppp-086-137.verio.axs2000.net [64.80.86.137]) by diskless7.axs2000.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1RGuiD26667; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:56:44 -0500 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:57:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Judge's Resposibilities/competitions From: Bill Wible Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Jim, Maybe I'm misunderstanding. When you say "All the awards should be given", I'm assuming you mean that categories should not be combined, and that each category should be given a prize, regardless of the number of beers. My comments were written assuming this was what you were saying, and that is where the 3 beers in a category and the prize valuations were coming from. It seems that this is not what you meant, after reading your last post. You were apparently involved in a competition where one of the categories, which was a large category, had no prizes or ribbons awarded, because every entry in the category scored less than the minimum score required for a prize. I must say, I've never heard of this, and if it did happen in my experience, I would probably be upset, too. I can't believe a category with more than say, 7 entries, would not have at least one good one. If this happened, I'd look at all the scores overall, and possibly question storage of the entries, or how they were handled after they were accepted. Failing that, I'd have to look at the judges who were assigned to that single category. It's unusual for every single beer in a large category to be bad. I did not mean to "go off" on you, it seems I just misunderstood what you were saying, and I apologize. Bill -------------------------- Brew By You 3504 Cottman Ave. Philadelphia, PA 19149 215-335-BREW (PA) 215-335-0712 (Fax) www.brewbyyou.net --------------------------- --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.6]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5551439EBE for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:44:52 -0500 Received: from JayAnkeney`at`aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id u.106.dead01f (4206) for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:44:39 -0500 (EST) From: JayAnkeney`at`aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Message-ID: <106.dead01f.29ae9f36`at`aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:44:38 EST Subject: Re: Digest for the period 2/26/02 - 2/27/02 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 44 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message In a message dated 2/26/02 10:06:47 PM, judge`at`synchro.com writes: << Subject: Organizer's Fault????? Jay Ankeney writes to agree with Jim Layton: >> Dear JudgeNet, You don't need to publish this (unless you want to), but I am totally baffled how Bill could claim I was saying "everybody deserves an award". My comments referred solely to the priopriety of awarding ribbons to just the qualifying 1st, 2nd and 3rd place winners in a given competition. You published a long response to my few lines, but its contents are really baffling. For future reference, should I expect that you put all responses on JudgeNet without editorial discretion? Anyone reading Bill's response who has not seen the complete thread will think that one of us is totally bananas. Jay Ankeney 220 39th St. Manhattan Beach, CA 90266 (310) 545-3983 --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from gilgamesh.nh.ultra.net ([207.172.11.22]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC555443A027 for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:56:36 -0500 Received: from [209.6.136.156] (209-6-136-156.s156.tnt1.mnh.nh.dialup.rcn.com [209.6.136.156]) by gilgamesh.nh.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult.n14767) with ESMTP id SAA31696 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:56:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:39:17 -0500 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Great Scott! Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Subject: low scores? X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I thought I was just going to be able to sit back and watch the thread continue to unravel (it started as a rant about specifying base styles, remember?), but...... Jay Ankeney writes, >Geez, its just a ribbon (or stein or medal or whatever). Zero cash value >to the recipient. Bragging rights amongst brewing buddies at best. Its >not like the judge's or the BJCP's credibility is on the line here. I beg to differ. Credibility is on the line. Each entrant has the right to forward what they believe to be unfair scoring or comments to the BJCP. And if brewers feel they are being unfairly scored low or comments out of line, they will lose the desire to compete, and we all can see where that will end. (please pardon my habit of seeing the ultimate worst side of any issue.) And... >The attitude that a beer isn't "good enough" for a competition's standards >belies not only a grinchy arrogance, it is an attempt to cover up the fact >that the organizers had not done their jobs well enough to attract good >brewers. Low scores reflect more about the competition than the beers entered. Low scores do not reflect the competition nor grinchy arrogance of the judges or organizers. With the wide diversity of judges and palates, low scores means beers that don't measure up to the standards that we, the BJCP, have set. Maybe our standards are too high, but I don't think so. Let's stop harping on eachother and start helping brewers brew better beer. It's our job. Scott Kaplan --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mailout5.nyroc.rr.com ([24.92.226.122]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC555643A0AC for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:21:59 -0500 Received: from peter (syr-24-92-233-115.twcny.rr.com [24.92.233.115]) by mailout5.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/Road Runner 1.12) with SMTP id g1S1LoM27434 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:21:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005c01c1bff6$15ddec10$73e95c18`at`peter> From: "Peter Garofalo" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Thanks, and D'Oh!!! Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:20:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message First off, thank to all who have graciously stepped up to help the BJCP where we need it most. The response has been rapid and impressive! Nest, I mis-spoke (or mis-wrote) when I said that lead graders received double the points for their grading efforts. They do receive a bonus, but I remembered incorrectly. As many of you know, the requirement for the Grand Master level includes grading 200 exams. The lead grader receives 1.5x the credit per exam toward this total. Therefore, one could grade 50 exams as "second" grader, then only 75 more as lead grader to more quickly fulfill the requirement. Possibly no big deal, but very important to some. Sorry about the confusion. Cheers, Peter Garofalo BJCP western exam director exam_director_west`at`bjcp.org --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from m5.jersey.juno.com ([64.136.16.68]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC555743A10A for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:18:49 -0500 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"uJiHWT5fQ41kJ23IKgbni+VvNwD71DROR60OWOsD5z0j+8L0N2ovkQ=="> Received: (from blutick`at`juno.com) by m5.jersey.juno.com (jqueuemail) id GUPXKKGQ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:18:35 EST To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:21:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Judge's Responsibilities/competitions Message-ID: <20020227.202118.-265871.0.blutick`at`juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-9,12-13,20-21,27-28,31-32 From: blutick`at`juno.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message >You were apparently involved in a > competition where one of the categories, which was a > large category, had no prizes or ribbons awarded, because > every entry in the category scored less than the minimum > score required for a prize. I must say, I've never heard > of this, and if it did happen in my experience, I would > probably be upset, too. Bill, I wish I had been clearer about that in my earlier post. In looking back, there were other points in that post that I should have been more careful in wording. To be more precise, only first place in that category was withheld. I entered and judged at the competition but I had no entries in that category, and I don't know what the scores were like. There was, to my recollection, no minimum cutoff score for awards ever mentioned in the competition flyer or judges instructions. This was a second round flight. I expect there would have been 30+ entries in the first round of that category. I first learned of the situation at the awards ceremony. Hey! What happened to First in XYZ category? I asked one of the competition staff about it immediately after the ceremony and he told me that one of the judges felt that none of the beers in the flight were worthy of first place and he got his way. The staffer didn't like it any better than I did, but it was a done deal by that time. Water under the bridge now, but I hope this discussion causes judges and organizers to think about how they would handle a similar situation in the future. Jim Layton --Message_Part_SYNC556143A228-- --Next_Part_SYNC556143A228--