Subject: Digest for the period 5/24/2003 - 5/25/2003 Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:01:50 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. SoCal - 1 Bottle Judging & 2 Bottle Competitions (Drew Beechum) 2. AHA NHC - one bottle (hollen`at`woodsprite.com) 3. RE: AHA 1st round (Sparrow, Jeffrey C. [IT/1825]) 4. Recapping (Madsymo`at`aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Drew Beechum Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 23:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SoCal - 1 Bottle Judging & 2 Bottle Competitions To be fair to both the judges and the organizers of the SoCal area, we rarely have any 2 bottle competitions to deal with. (The AHA Regionals and the America's Finest City.) Until recently both of these were organized by the folks down at QUAFF. This year QUAFF wanted to leverage the LA judge pool that they normally don't see in San Diego. (Usually about 8 judges will make their way between the cities for judgings) So this was LA's first exposure to running a 2 bottle (Ok.. 1 bottle). Call it a learning experience and now we know a lot better. Are other parts of the country moving more and more to a 2 bottle requirement for competitions instead of the usual 3? There has been some call for a similar move here in our club. FYI - The way that the judges at my table handled it was close to what I suggested. We popped the bottles with a minimum of distortion and then snapped the caps back on for preservation. Despite this we still saw a ton of problems with the aromas and flavors failing to be even a shadow of their former selves. -- Drew --- Dave Houseman wrote: > It's amazing that Drew suggests what should have been standard operating > procedure. Yep, he's hit the nail on the head. This isn't the > responsibility of the AHA. The finger of fault could certainly be pointed > to the local organizers. But the judges involved have to take > responsibility as well. If anyone as a judge is involved in a flight that > has other flights that require resolution with a mini-BOS, you have the > responsibility to manage the amount of beer consumed and the re-capping of > the bottles that might go forward. With two judges in a flight that alone > will determine the winners, I routinely pour three glasses, one to share > with the steward so they can learn as well. But if I'm in a multiple flight > category that will have a mini-BOS the first thing I do is ask, "Is there a > second bottle?" If so, then back to pouring liberally and sharing with the > steward. But if there's only one bottle, then the next question is where > are the caps and capper. Judges, especially the more experienced ones have > to take the responsibility to manage these situations. Often they are much > more experienced than the organizers of the local competitions. But all > involved have to be situationally aware and plan accordingly. One bottle > will work but you can't manage one bottle like you would if you had two. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AHA NHC - one bottle I guess I have to chime in and at least say, "Me too!" Although, Dave Housemen hit the nail on the head that judges should be responsible to ensure that a beer in a mini-BOS is as best as it can be, I am frankly amazed that recapping and cooling is not standard operating procedure at every site. I do have to disagree slightly with Dave, in that I think that the responsibility for recapping ultimately falls on the organizers to properly educate the stewards and ensure re-capping and cooling is standard. During the competition welcome message to the judges and stewards for every competition we have run over the last 10+ years, the organizer always reminds that all split panels should be sparing with their first pours, and that all bottles in split panels except obvious stinkers will be recapped and put back in the cooler. Also, I agree that two bottles for the NHC is not a good thing. Take last year for example. QUAFF alone handled the first round for the Southwest region. There were more than 700 entries. Having to receive, store and process 1400+ bottles would not have been impossible. dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen QUAFF ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sparrow, Jeffrey C. [IT/1825] Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:07:15 -0400 Subject: RE: AHA 1st round Gordon Strong said: "There is no BOS round during the AHA 1st round, so the traditional need for a second bottle isn't present. So, the AHA 1st round really isn't that logically different from a normal competition that requires two bottles (a majority these days, I think)." So, basically, we're faulting the NHC when just about every competition is run in the same manner. It is a fact that most brewers don't want to surrender any more bottles than absolutely necessary. That is a major reason for the reduction in bottles from 3 to 2 in most competitions. Logistics are also an issue. I routinely get close to 600 entries in my NHC region. I do not have the capacity nor the desire to handle 1200 bottles nor dispose of hundreds of mediocre unopened entries. It's also a question of economics. Adding more sites costs more money. Add another bottle and you likely drop the number of entries. Now you have about the same number of bottles at about half the revenue. While the AHA is a not-for-profit organization, they need to make enough money to pay the bills. As judges we don't want to think about these things but someone has to or there won't be an NHC. Gordon is spot on. We need to consider, when judging, how to best use that 1 bottle. If anyone really wants to get the feel for unpacking about 2000 bottles, contact me and I'll put you in touch with guy running the NHC second round this year. jeff sparrow jeff`at`chibeer.org great lakes site coordinator 2003 AHA conf. chair This communication is intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential or exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please note that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Anyone who receives this message in error should notify the sender immediately and delete it from his or her computer. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Madsymo`at`aol.com Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:40:49 -0400 Subject: Recapping When I was co-organizer of the AHA 1st round in the mid-1990's (East Coast) the AHA provided plastic caps that could be easily snapped into place on the bottles after they had been opened. They appeared to be surplus from some bottling facility. If memory serves, they were soft, opaque, white plastic -- (sorta like the caps on plastic ketchup bottles). They were placed on the bottle with a firm push using the heel of the palm. No muss. No fuss. Easy to reopen if needed later. The current organizers may wish to ask the AHA about providing them again. Keith A. Symonds Master Judge ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 5/24/2003 - 5/25/2003 Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:01:50 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. SoCal - 1 Bottle Judging & 2 Bottle Competitions (Drew Beechum) 2. AHA NHC - one bottle (hollen`at`woodsprite.com) 3. RE: AHA 1st round (Sparrow, Jeffrey C. [IT/1825]) 4. Recapping (Madsymo`at`aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Drew Beechum Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 23:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SoCal - 1 Bottle Judging & 2 Bottle Competitions To be fair to both the judges and the organizers of the SoCal area, we rarely have any 2 bottle competitions to deal with. (The AHA Regionals and the America's Finest City.) Until recently both of these were organized by the folks down at QUAFF. This year QUAFF wanted to leverage the LA judge pool that they normally don't see in San Diego. (Usually about 8 judges will make their way between the cities for judgings) So this was LA's first exposure to running a 2 bottle (Ok.. 1 bottle). Call it a learning experience and now we know a lot better. Are other parts of the country moving more and more to a 2 bottle requirement for competitions instead of the usual 3? There has been some call for a similar move here in our club. FYI - The way that the judges at my table handled it was close to what I suggested. We popped the bottles with a minimum of distortion and then snapped the caps back on for preservation. Despite this we still saw a ton of problems with the aromas and flavors failing to be even a shadow of their former selves. -- Drew --- Dave Houseman wrote: > It's amazing that Drew suggests what should have been standard operating > procedure. Yep, he's hit the nail on the head. This isn't the > responsibility of the AHA. The finger of fault could certainly be pointed > to the local organizers. But the judges involved have to take > responsibility as well. If anyone as a judge is involved in a flight that > has other flights that require resolution with a mini-BOS, you have the > responsibility to manage the amount of beer consumed and the re-capping of > the bottles that might go forward. With two judges in a flight that alone > will determine the winners, I routinely pour three glasses, one to share > with the steward so they can learn as well. But if I'm in a multiple flight > category that will have a mini-BOS the first thing I do is ask, "Is there a > second bottle?" If so, then back to pouring liberally and sharing with the > steward. But if there's only one bottle, then the next question is where > are the caps and capper. Judges, especially the more experienced ones have > to take the responsibility to manage these situations. Often they are much > more experienced than the organizers of the local competitions. But all > involved have to be situationally aware and plan accordingly. One bottle > will work but you can't manage one bottle like you would if you had two. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AHA NHC - one bottle I guess I have to chime in and at least say, "Me too!" Although, Dave Housemen hit the nail on the head that judges should be responsible to ensure that a beer in a mini-BOS is as best as it can be, I am frankly amazed that recapping and cooling is not standard operating procedure at every site. I do have to disagree slightly with Dave, in that I think that the responsibility for recapping ultimately falls on the organizers to properly educate the stewards and ensure re-capping and cooling is standard. During the competition welcome message to the judges and stewards for every competition we have run over the last 10+ years, the organizer always reminds that all split panels should be sparing with their first pours, and that all bottles in split panels except obvious stinkers will be recapped and put back in the cooler. Also, I agree that two bottles for the NHC is not a good thing. Take last year for example. QUAFF alone handled the first round for the Southwest region. There were more than 700 entries. Having to receive, store and process 1400+ bottles would not have been impossible. dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen QUAFF ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sparrow, Jeffrey C. [IT/1825] Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:07:15 -0400 Subject: RE: AHA 1st round Gordon Strong said: "There is no BOS round during the AHA 1st round, so the traditional need for a second bottle isn't present. So, the AHA 1st round really isn't that logically different from a normal competition that requires two bottles (a majority these days, I think)." So, basically, we're faulting the NHC when just about every competition is run in the same manner. It is a fact that most brewers don't want to surrender any more bottles than absolutely necessary. That is a major reason for the reduction in bottles from 3 to 2 in most competitions. Logistics are also an issue. I routinely get close to 600 entries in my NHC region. I do not have the capacity nor the desire to handle 1200 bottles nor dispose of hundreds of mediocre unopened entries. It's also a question of economics. Adding more sites costs more money. Add another bottle and you likely drop the number of entries. Now you have about the same number of bottles at about half the revenue. While the AHA is a not-for-profit organization, they need to make enough money to pay the bills. As judges we don't want to think about these things but someone has to or there won't be an NHC. Gordon is spot on. We need to consider, when judging, how to best use that 1 bottle. If anyone really wants to get the feel for unpacking about 2000 bottles, contact me and I'll put you in touch with guy running the NHC second round this year. jeff sparrow jeff`at`chibeer.org great lakes site coordinator 2003 AHA conf. chair This communication is intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential or exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please note that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Anyone who receives this message in error should notify the sender immediately and delete it from his or her computer. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Madsymo`at`aol.com Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:40:49 -0400 Subject: Recapping When I was co-organizer of the AHA 1st round in the mid-1990's (East Coast) the AHA provided plastic caps that could be easily snapped into place on the bottles after they had been opened. They appeared to be surplus from some bottling facility. If memory serves, they were soft, opaque, white plastic -- (sorta like the caps on plastic ketchup bottles). They were placed on the bottle with a firm push using the heel of the palm. No muss. No fuss. Easy to reopen if needed later. The current organizers may wish to ask the AHA about providing them again. Keith A. Symonds Master Judge ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************